My God the Germans are boring

"slipperysallylikespenguins" (slipperysally) 10/24/2019 at 15:33 • Filed to: None

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I’ve been browsing the building configurators(for the US) online this morning and the Germans sadden me, with a few exceptions.

I like my cars naturally aspirated with a manual transmission and rear wheel drive. So not a lot of options for me. The Germans used to be the best builders in the world for this category. Let’s take a look at what they have become.

Audi : Currently has a 2.0T I4, 2.5T I5, 3.0T V6, or 4.0T V8 for their main cars. The only exception is the 5.2NA V10 in the R8. But not a single manual available.

BMW : Currently has a 2.0T I4, 3.0T I6, 4.4T V8, 6.6T V12, 1.5T I3, and finally a .647 Liter NA 2 cylinder. Their only NA engine is in an electric car.

BMW will put a few manuals out there:

230 coupe/M230 Coupe(but not convertible)

M240 Coupe/Convertible

430/440 Coupe(but not convertible)

M4 Coupe/Convertible

*M3 not available on website, but regular 3 series auto only.

Mercedes: Currently has a 2.0T I4, 3.0T V6, 3.0T I6, 4.0T V8, 4.7T V8, 5.5T V8, and 6.0T V12. Not a single NA engine or manual.

Porsche : Currently has a 2.0T Flat4, 2.5T Flat4, 3.0T Flat6, 3.8T Flat6, 2.9T V6, 3.0T V6, 4.0T V8, and finally a 4.0NA Flat6.

The 4.0NA only being available in the 911 Speedster, 911 GT3, Cayman GT4, or Boxster Spyder and all with a manual option.

They do provide a manual option for every Cayman/Boxster though so thats a plus, but only on the 911 Speedster or 911 GT3 in the 911 range. Shame.

VW: Currently has a 1.4T I4, 1.8T I4, 2.0T I4, or 3.6NA VR6.

They do provide the most manuals though but still scattered.

Jetta S and GLI models only.

Golf S, SE, GTI, or R only.

Golf Sportwagen S only.

All trims of the Golf Alltrack.

I get why most of those engines are 500cc per cylinder as it’s the most efficient, but it gets to be very boring. Most of the ones that don’t fit that design are holdovers and will be replaced before too long. It’s gotten to a point where Audi, BMW, and Mercedes are just building the same cars with different sheet metal and tuning. Just partner up already and be done with it. Oh, and not a single diesel for the US market.

So the only German cars that meet my specs for a sporting car are the Porsche 911 Speedster, 911 GT3, or Cayman GT4. Yay me.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 15:36

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TIL: You can still get a VR6 in a new VW

Spanfeller is a twat > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 15:39

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I don’t really understand why you’re complaining.... but OK.

E90M3 > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 15:40

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BMW hasn’t offered an N/A engine since 2013, at least in a car. There might be an exception in the X series, but that’s beyond what I care about.

Apart from the SLK up until a couple years ago, Mercedes last stick was in the C300; that was dropped in either 2010 or 2011.

Both of these statements relate to the US market.

slipperysallylikespenguins > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability 10/24/2019 at 15:41

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I was surprised to find that, only in the Atlas.

For Sweden > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 15:43

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But the Ventus 3 is cool

slipperysallylikespenguins > E90M3 10/24/2019 at 15:43

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I thought they still offered an NA I6 in the 2 series but I guess that was long ago.

Textured Soy Protein > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 15:44

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Japan’s got you covered.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability 10/24/2019 at 15:46

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From an engine-swapper’s point of view, one of The Great Tragedies of Swapping is that VAG never released an alloy version of the VR6 (or VR5) blocks. Still a cool engine, but Ugh, heavy for what it is.

It’s weird to see an Iron Block VR6 offered by VW’s brands, when even GM has alloy pushrod V8 engines in most truck  lines today.

E90M3 > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 15:46

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Nope, the last cars they offered with the N/A I6 were the 128i and the E92/3 328i; their  replacements both had turbo I4s.

CompactLuxuryFan > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 15:47

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The 2 series actually never had an NA I-6 anywhere. By the time it came out, the N52/53 that would have gone in the 228i  had already been replaced with a 2.0T. And the rest is history. 

slipperysallylikespenguins > CompactLuxuryFan 10/24/2019 at 15:49

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True, I meant to say 1 series. I forgot they changed the name.

slipperysallylikespenguins > Textured Soy Protein 10/24/2019 at 15:52

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Yep, they still know how to do it right. At least for now. I expect the next Z to go turbo/hybrid though. Maybe the Brz too. But the Miata might just soldier on forever. The American Muscle cars should last a while too.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 15:53

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Maybe I’m just to young or I know that I’m not their target market, but I have a hard time getting upset about this. Times change.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 15:55

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I can get behind this:

https://www.bmwusa.com/build-your-own.html#/studio/e1dwecrt/summary

(even thought there is no manual option)

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 10/24/2019 at 15:57

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The L99 is basically a LS3 with different heads and cam..plus cyl deactivation iirc

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 15:58

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Current rumors is that the next generation BRZ is getting an NA version of Subaru’s new 2.4T they use in the Ascent.

Saracen > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 15:58

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It’s 500cc per cylinder because that’s about as big as a 4 cylinder can get without compromising NVH too much. Also, most of those engines are based on modular architecture so they all have the same bore and stroke.

Also, most of the cars are not boring at all.

slipperysallylikespenguins > Saracen 10/24/2019 at 16:02

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https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15358174/why-0-5-liter-cylinders-will-soon-dominate-automotive-engine-design/

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 10/24/2019 at 16:08

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Why cant we just have a fast BRZ :(

The Ghost of Oppo > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 10/24/2019 at 16:09

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Shit I used to know the reason why they never used alloy blocks but currently the thought escapes  me. I will follow up if my brain starts working correctly.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability 10/24/2019 at 16:14

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Should still be 220-240hp based on the NA 2.0 vs 2.0T. 230HP would be a great balance for a street sportscar.

Boxer_4 > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability 10/24/2019 at 16:16

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It’s build your own.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 16:17

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Government regulations + customer demand.

Don’t blame them...

slipperysallylikespenguins > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 10/24/2019 at 16:19

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I’m just an old man(30) that doesn’t like change. Myself and all my friends in high school and later had Camaros, Mustangs, or 350zs. A few had Bmws or older Mercs. One had a 240Z. They all fit the formul a of NA, manual, rwd. That is the driving experience that I learned on and am used to. I’ve tried many modern turbo cars and they all leave me cold. I prefer the noises the NA engines make, the way they deliver power, and the much simpler mechanics. But now looking forward there are almost no new cars that excite me so that is a bummer.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability 10/24/2019 at 16:20

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The M8 GC looks fantastic.

I’d be very okay with this as my “old man car”.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 10/24/2019 at 16:30

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That will be fun! 230bhp, 2750lb curb weight is pretty good

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/24/2019 at 16:30

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GIB!

WRXforScience > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability 10/24/2019 at 16:31

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They are plenty fast with the right driver, but only under cornering and braking.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > WRXforScience 10/24/2019 at 16:34

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Ooh yeah, its a fantastic handling platform but a 15 year old hatchback is faster than it (my Mini) and that should not be the case...

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability 10/24/2019 at 16:36

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Pretty much.  Lots of compatibility across designations to swap and match heads, bottom ends, intakes and accessories too.

Curious to see how the LT series trickles into trucks and SUVs over time. They “should” be working on some kind of integrated motor-alternator-bell scheme like the Mercedes guys have going with the new I-6 series motors.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 16:38

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I thought 911s got a 7-speed manual or 7-speed PDK option choice, not just on the Speedster and GT3.

Did 992 really kill the 911 manual gearbox choice? How is that not a torches-and-pitchforks trigger?

It appears that the Carrera does mandate an 8-speed PDK... and the center console does not look manual shifter friendly.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability 10/24/2019 at 16:41

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Seriously. It the first new BMW in a long time that I’ve actually lusted after.

(also like the M2)

slipperysallylikespenguins > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 10/24/2019 at 16:45

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Yep, 992 killed it, they said they have the option of adding it later but you know they won’t unless it is some special edition. That 7 speed was very short lived.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > The Ghost of Oppo 10/24/2019 at 16:48

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I vaguely remember the explanation, from some VAG guy, along the way. I “think” the whole line was assumed to be redundant once Porsche was on-board and the general theme was “mostly I4 and I5 going forward”, with V6s where needed for more power.

The “ding” against the VR series was always the un-equal runner lengths... and the fact that by the time you cross-over the gas flow and mount the huge manifolds it’s really no smaller than a V6.

The case “for” is summarized below...

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 10/24/2019 at 16:49

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Such a damn cop-out... just USE THE 2.4T.

Not that I’ll care about it, if the 2024 MR2 revival rumors materialize into something interesting.

Anywhere NEAR BMW i8 performance in a mainstream steel, aluminum, and SMC chassis and body, not expensive Carbon Fiber... and this will be properly interesting.

30-mile all-electric highway-speed mode, series hybrid efficiency mode, parallel hybrid burst performance mode and direct-drive cruise and regen mode... 20-ish KwH, an 10-15 gallons of fuel on board...

sport mode burst output equivalent to ~ 350 horsepower, and ~ 400tq, like the i8's inline- 3 Turbo and electric motor system is entirely doable at a reasonable price.

a 1.6T boxer4 driving a PHEV drivetrain with front electric assist and regen, and this is actually what FRS/BRZ should be (and it would be AWD for Subaru’s lineup.

and it would probably handle better with the center of gravity low, and the weight bias rearward , although perhaps in the 3250lb range with the batteries involved.

I would seriously try to buy something like this at $ 35K, where I won’t even consider a 370Z or WRX STI as 15 year old cars for new car money, let alone a BRZ/FRS for less money and less power .

slipperysallylikespenguins > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/24/2019 at 16:53

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But the Japanese still make lightweight NA sportscars and the US still makes fire breathing NA V8s, so why can’t the Germans make either? If anything I’ll blame the accountants and product planners. The companies are just pushing for more and more sales and in doing so abandon their heritage and a few customers. T he biggest markets for the performance cars don’t have the emissions standards or tax burdens of much of Europe.

This is an interesting editorial about customer demand from a recent Road& T rack m ostly looking at wagons but is still related to the lack of manuals.

Hopefully it is readable.

slipperysallylikespenguins > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 10/24/2019 at 16:56

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I will be truly shocked if we ever actually see a new Mr2. That one looks fantastic.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 16:59

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European regulations definitely put a damper on things. Good on Porsche (and BMW, to some respect) for keeping around the manual for the North American consumer.

Dealers are definitely partially to blame, but hard to blame them for stocking what sells.

slipperysallylikespenguins > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/24/2019 at 17:04

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I’m most dissapointed in Porsche as there is no reason not to have a manual option on a regular 911, especially after they put the investment in that new 7 speed.

The article is interesting in that the companies are putting incentives on the already good selling vehicles and completely ignoring the wagons. They are built on the same platforms, but the more expensive to produce crossovers are cheaper.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/24/2019 at 17:05

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I always like a M2 until I heard it IRL...it sounds so bad :( it farted at every upshift even with a manual transmission.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability 10/24/2019 at 17:08

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Yeah, can’t compared with the old NA sweetness.

Was it an M2 or an M2C (with the S55) you heard?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 17:10

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The 992 has no manual yet. It’s coming.

“ Though the PDK is now standard on the 992, Porsche promises that a seven-speed manual transmission version will be coming soon”

slipperysallylikespenguins > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/24/2019 at 17:17

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I could see it being released in very expensive special editions, but will be surprised if it ever returns to the standard car. Porsche will claim sales are great without it and there isn’t enough demand and it shall never return . Really maybe 1 person is going to walk into a dealer and say “no manual, no sale. ” Without a very vocal call for a manual it won’t happen.

Yes, I am a glass half empty type.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/24/2019 at 17:17

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I think it was a M2C

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 17:50

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Haha - I’m pretty sure you’re wrong (and definitely hope you are). 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability 10/24/2019 at 17:53

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Yeah, pretty sure those sound worse.

Blackbeard Ben > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 18:24

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Well, hopefully Porsche and the lack of manual 911s is just a temporary situation with the new generation.

I am, however, afraid that they’ll find sales won’t drop too much and they won’t even bother in the end.

That, or they’ll come out with some special edition with the option and charge tens of thousands extra for the privilege, later to be followed with a slightly less expensive, less limited version for the proverbial masses.

dieseldub > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 19:28

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I dunno... I really like the modern German turbo engines. Most of them have max torque available as low as 1700 RPM... and it’s a LOT of torque, comparatively.

VAG has 2.0Ts that make their old 2.7TT look slow... I get the attraction to NA power being “instant and predictable.”

But what I like a lot more than that is gobs and gobs of torque available even below 2000 RPM... and most of them will hold that max torque level flat through about 4000 RPM before it drops off just a little bit. Buddy of mine has a 2015 S6 with the 4.0T. I did a little work on it and have driven it. HUGELY impressive power available virtually instantly. NA engines just seem downright plebian compared to such a powerplant. The packaging under hood is pretty wild, too... turbos in the V immediately under the plastic engine cover. The engine cover is NOT optional on that engine... unless you want to set your hood insulation on fire.

Embrace the progress. What we have now are the best driving and most powerful internal combustion engines ever in production cars, have fun with it while it lasts. We’ll all be driving quiet battery cars soon enough.

dieseldub > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 19:46

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Good ol Jason Cammisa.

I think he’s a little wrong there, though. Yes, in Europe you can special order whatever you want from VW in particular. You USED to be able to do that with VW here as well, BUT, since they don’t sell nearly as many cars here, in an effort to at least stay sort-of profitable in this market, they started producing options “packages” instead, and you just kind of get what you get. If you want a specific feature, it might mean adding some you don’t really care about OR giving up one you do (for example, when the NMS Passats first came out, if you wanted a sun roof, you got the higher trim level, but that meant you could not get the manual transmission, which was only available in low trim levels). That is the reality of the situation. They simply don’t sell enough here therefore we get packages instead of the ability to special order individual options.

Same goes for drivetrains. There’s a HUGE, wildly varying selection of engines in Europe which we never got here. Once again, it’s down to being a numbers game. For a long time, our base model engine with VWs was an 8V 2.0L. It was pretty anemic (115 hp) and not particularly efficient likely because it was so underpowered people were just putting their foot to the floor much more frequently than they otherwise would to compensate for it.

They eventually replaced it with a 4V/cylinder DOHC engine... but it had an extra cylinder. Made decent enough power, but the efficiency was lacking. They eventually brought back a slightly reworked, but still 115 hp 8V 2.0L for the Mk6 Jetta sedan... in a much heavier car than what it had to motivate previously. Talk about a dog.

In Europe? You can get a 1.6 16V non turbo that makes as much power as that 2.0. Or a more powerful 1.8 non turbo. Or a turbo 3 cylinder... or a wide swath of diesels from 1.2 and 1.4L 3 cylinders to 1.6 and 2.0 4 cylinders. 5 cylinders in larger longitudinally mounted vehicles (or transverse drivetrain vans) along with V6s and V8s... and even upto V12s diesels in Audi Q7s.

Would a 1.8L 16V like so many other competitors used as a base model engine be too much to ask? Doesn’t have to make a ton of power... 140 hp is fine, a lot like the 1ZZ-FE and similar engines Toyota had for a long time.

But, our market is indeed going more and more towards blobular, taller SUV-esque vehicles. Not that people actually go off road with them, they just like the form factor for their families, hauling stuff and doing whatever.

Europe is always going to be a much different story because they pay at least double what we do for fuel and more of them live in a country that’s much more condensed than the US of A. More living in old cities with tight streets and limited parking. Small cars make sense there both economically and physically. America is a very different marketplace. And our market is currently saying they want SUVs, trucks and whatever the fuck a cross-over is.

Fuel is cheap, space is plentiful in most places in the country, and people more frequently drive long distances here. It’s a very different situation. But VW’s bullheadedness in limiting what products we get is definitely not helping their case.

slipperysallylikespenguins > dieseldub 10/24/2019 at 19:59

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The flat torque curves are very impressive, especially with the sequential or variable turbo setups. They fit the character of a large German sled very well. It’s more disappointing that there is almost no variety in their drive trains though. The 2.0 I4, 3.0 V6, and 4.0 V8s might as well all be the same. They sound alike and deli ver their power the same. They are almost all awd now too.

Go back 10 years to 2009 and you had:

BMW M5: 500 HP 5.0L V10 NA , Manual, RWD

Audi RS6: 580 HP 5.0L V10 TT, Auto, AWD

Mercedes C63/E63: 451 HP 6.2L V8 NA, Auto , RWD

Cadillac CTS-V: 556 HP 6.2L V8 Supercharged, Manual, RWD

The variety was wild and every car had a unique character. I can’t possibly see how what we have now is progress over that.( Besides the more usable power and better MPGs). I reject this progress and will stick to my old things and motorcyc les. 

slipperysallylikespenguins > dieseldub 10/24/2019 at 20:03

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It’s just interesting in that article that incentives are being put towards already popular vehicles versus the less popular. And the crossovers are built on the same platforms as the wagons but are cheaper even though they are much better equipped . The wagons don’t stand a chance.

bob and john > slipperysallylikespenguins 10/24/2019 at 20:04

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they are making them sure. but are they selling is the question